Farming Eye

Any pics of the Limousin champion with her calf? Thanks for the great coverage FarmingEye

• Chrissie Lawrence

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  July 23, 2012 at 6:51 pm

  Hi Robert….no she gets done without the calf!!!

Pleased to see more breeders think this way, I know when I’m judging I won’t put a cow up unless it has a calf at foot and I think all cow classes should be judged 50/50 with the calf.
As breeders we must concentrate on funtional cattle if they can’t walk or be fertile and milk it should not matter how good the animal is. We in all breeds have for to long chased the biggest, heaviest and highest figured cattle thInking they are the best when we have forgotten the basics which will put money into commercial men’s pockets while looking at figures as a tool and maybe going for a more balanced animal as far as figures are concerned.
I also believe that these two year old heifers should calve at two years as the arguement that they are not big enough surely dosn’t stack up when the animal is well over 900kg at two year old. Keeping a cow to three to calve does not make her a better breeder as the genetics in her are the same when ever she calves.

I am pleased domino didn’t win, awful feet – he should not be bred from – front feet turned out! Limmos are losing it – ref the champ she maybe nice cow but can’t milk and calf ain’t good!

I hope Mr Kerr is reading all of this. Perhaps judges need to be sent a memo from the boss man just reminding them what it is they should be looking for.

An oustanding beast would be one that can breed. Her calf at foot proves that she is anything but outstanding. Would also point out that she is a 4 your old cow with her first calf still at foot.

• willy

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  July 30, 2012 at 7:07 pm

  4 in september and the calf is almost 9 months

Looks like the lims just won the interbreed pairs.

Come on lim judges, listen to your people on here and lets get some milky cows and a bull with nice straight legs in as your breed champions. Ignore the big beefy ones.

That should pave the way for a blue or charolais win next year

• Show Stopper

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  July 25, 2012 at 5:10 pm

  Excuse me, Ignore the Beefy ones, are u crazy, we are not breeding dairy cows here. You are supposed to be breeding bulls for pedigree as well as COMMERCIAL buyers, and if there were no COMMERCIAL buyers where would all of the bulls be, in the primestock ring!!!

Teddy is not the best for sure…….but being starving from birth doesn’t help either. Broadmeadows ainsi ….now that was a powenrful but feminine cow with milk.
Her first calf was Cannon. she bred to anything and never bred anything that looked likt the cal next to dumandy.

First of all well done team Farming Eye on your excellent coverage of the Royal welsh.
This is a good debate about how we as breeders should be breeding and what traits we should emphisis more.
I don’t think we should critise judges as they have been asked for their opinion and that is what they have done I only wish that all judges give reasons to why they have placed the class this way more peolple will understand what they are doing and why as everyone has different opinions.
Charolais breeder I have found the oposite with calving at two they are milkier and more fertile the younger they calve, why do you worry about how they grow after two years of age as the bigger cow will cost you more to keep. Also a commercial customer will only worry about how there calves perform until about two as by then they should be finished by then.
I think the size of the bag on a cow is no indication to her ability to milk as we are breeding females with nice tight udders with small teats and they milk very well. To many cows have the other problem there udders are to big and slack with bug teats as I have seen this year especially in the Simmintal breed.
Showtime your comment about who would cull a cow that does not milk just shows what is wrong in the beef industry I for one would not keep a cow that dosn’t milk and also would not keep a heifer that can’t go in calf either.
I have judged Domino this year at the East of England and though he had bad front legs I still put him Continental Champion as compared to the others he walked the best in the soft conditions I must say and the the heifers put in front of me were not going to calf until they were three which to me is no use as in my herd they would of been at culled, which I said in my reasons which I hoped let people understand my reasons in doing so.
Lim fan I also put a yealing heifer Champion at the weekend who I would say was feminine and had a great poutcome to her in making a super cow yes her head could of been better but for 13 months of age had enough thickness for me and maybe in the Interbreed she was out bulked by the rest I was still happy as my other choices for Champion was a cow with out a calf at foot and a two year old heifer that was not going to calf until near three which unless they have been flushed is as I’ve said not my ideal of a female who is going to make me and my customers money.

• Show

  Reply
  July 25, 2012 at 8:42 pm

  William you make some good points – interesting to hear. I agree that calving heifers at 2 does not affect genetic base of the animal. Calving at three is a personal choice of the breeder. Do you not think that a heifer calving at three – which is a choice of the breeder, not the animal -deseves more credit than a limmo bull with front feet turned out, which is something you can do nothing about? The bull will probably have also made very few natural servings. I also think the cow In question having Gaf her first calf at foot being 4 years old, the calf not doing well , attributed to lack of milk, Is universally not desirable and should not be rewarded.

Well said!

Were there not more milky cows in her class then or are you actually saying the same as me now – beefing ability first and the milking issue is secondary.

It’s good getting everyones opinions on what we should and shouldn’t do but at the end of the day you judge whats in front of you, not whether or not you would take them home etc. The very capable judge made a terrific job and it would have been very difficult to go past Dumandy.

agree with some of the above messages!
show animals seem to be different than actual animals of that breed…maybe that is why they are shown, win etc..
as said in earlier message’s, a cow of any breed, should have had a calf by 3 years of age in my opinion..showing or no showing of the said animal.. to show the breeds quality in milkiness/offspring etc…
as the majority of pedigree breeders potential customers(that attend shows) of there stock-will never show them, and will only ever see them, when bought in there working clothes as such..

an animal looking well in a ring-will no be much good, if poor on the land,returns, etc. if you get me drift!

happy happy days.

Mr Mclaren,can you please explain your decision not to place females who do not calve til 3 yrs,surely your there to judge the best animal in the ring on the day,not breeders personal management decisions,if other judges share your views this could explain some of the strange placings wich occur quite regularly in the ring ,i find it quite annoying reading these comments,myself along with many other breeders spend months preparing our cattle,as you must know, only now to be told breeding decisions ,some of us take as part of our welfare plan will place us down the line.Millington tangerine was interbreed champ at the highland and welsh in the same year,a fantastic example of the lim ,she was a very plain hiefer had she calved at two she would never have gone on to the succses she had,i can,t imagine ian kerr or any other breed top man been to happy when trying to promote there breeds at being put down because of calving age.Why do you feel your there to judge personal decisions and should,nt you be there to judge the best animal on the day and not on calving age,ebv,s or any other non appearance matter,one notable south devon judge recently commented he placed our bull back because he thought he would be a poor terminal sire,well whats that got to do with his physical appearance,by the way we invited him to view his current calves ,still waiting.There is a simple solution to this debate,have a seperate cow calving before 25 mths class and a plus 25mth class then let them go head to head in champion class.Out of interest can you tell me the last ihterbreed champ that calved at two yrs?

Tim every judge has different opinions of what the best animal in the ring is and if you like others think it should be an unproductive big fat female then thats your choice, when I judge like most judges we are looking at the best animal with traits that will help the commercial man make money and to me a female that is calving as near two as possible is my idea of what a good female is, as the first job of a breeding female is to be fertile and have the ability to rear a good calf plus be good on her legs.
If you had a heifer without a calf and were put down because of that yes you might be annoyed but to me and through experience of showing if the judge can explain why he has made their decision then as an exhibitor you have to except that.
As for Interbreed Champions that calf at two not sure when the last one was but I know I have won Interbreeds with two year olds with calve at foot but this is what this debate has been about, that judges should be putting traits like fertility, udders and legs higher up there list of priority rather than just going for extremes of the biggest, thickest and fattest being the best as these animlas won’t likely be the ones that leave the commercial man the most money
Even my heifers that have been flushed four times will still calf near 30 months and even then if any of my heifers do not hold to a bull in the 9 weeks they are with the bull they are sent to Scotbeef even if it is the show heifer.
To me there is no good commercial reason to calf at three yes it might be a managment reason but when I’m judging its my opinion that is being asked for and that is what I will give and I am happy to explain why.
Show to say yes Angus mature ealier than other breeds so they can calf at two is wrong as in all my travels around the major beef producing countries of the world ALL breeds seem to be able to calf at two fine. Maybe the continental breeds here have been selecting for the wrong traits then because to me there heifers are certainly big enough to go to the bull.

• tim speck

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  July 31, 2012 at 6:44 pm

  mr mclaren,would you not agree the commercial man will have a little more about them than to think ANY show beast fairly represents any animal of it,s breed type,showing cattle and producing commercial finished cattle are just so far apart it,s untrue,finishing cattle is based on profit margin,s influenced by sound management such as calving age ,feed costs,vet billsetc,show cattle and to some extent females and bulls going to sales are very rarely fed on a commercial ration and this is why would mantain show cattle should be judged on how they look and best represent the breed on the DAY not on any commercial merit,how many show winners do you know that go on to produce fat cattle.on a different subject do you think if i sent a shorthorn ,hereford or south devon as far away from breed type as dumandy that she would be put up as interbreed champ ,i don,t she would not win her breed champ so why do lim judges keep putting cows like dumandy up.

  • Show Stopper

    July 31, 2012 at 10:44 pm

    Tim i agree. A few years ago me and my father were showing a simmental cow and calf. The judge placed us 2nd, behind a huge cow, who had only 1 calf, by the time ours had 3. he later told us, ‘she was a corect, LITTLE cow’. she was the perfect animal, in the breed description, yet the judge couldnt see past the power of the other cow, despite her faults in her breed characteristics. this year, we took the cow to a show, and the judge was aghast that she had 5 calves, and was only six. we told him our herds are run on a commercial basis, and having ‘show animals’ doesnt pay the bills. im pleased to say we came 1st this time round. i doubt dumandy has payed for herself yet.

Not convinced at all about this profitability thing being all about getting the biggest number of calves from a female over her lifetime. Or even about getting that first calf at 2.
The cost of feeding them to beef and getting weight for age is what determines profitability now for suckler herds .
You might say its cheaper to feed a small cow rather than a big one but its not that much different really compared to the cost of feeding calves to beef. If you concentrate on getting big growthy calves which put weight on easily its way more profitable than trying to save money on feeding cows.
I don’t see much benefit in longevity of the females either — as they get older their calves actually get worse and the fat price for a decent cow is more than enough to buy a replacement.

I think you have to jugde pedigree cattle as being the advertisement for what that breed is actually capable of, not how profitable that particular animal would be. Suckler breeders need good weighty calves so if we see a big heavy bull or female as breed champion its a good thing, not a bad one.

Mr Kirton put up ironston fluribunda as champion at Kenilworth and she is the double of dumandy at 2 years old good beast

Tim to say that the show ring should not represent what is good in the beef industry and be miles apart from the commercial reallity is a very sad thing to say and shows what is wrong with show cattle. I for one do not breed show cattle but show the best cattle from my herd to promote what it and the breed can do to a wider audience.
Many breeds in many countries have chased a show ring type only to suffer commercially as they have forgotten who there main customers are the commercial man. I have always been told that I should breed good commercial bulls and the breeders ones will come along not the other way round.
The show ring should be about what is best in the beef industry and to me before you get into breed type if they can’t walk or be fertile they are no use to me. If all it takes to win is not to calve until they are nearer four to give people a better chance of winning then we might as well stop showing because we as breeders have then lost touch with reallity.
Surely it is better to show cattle that the commercial man can see will leave them money and help there business rather than for them to think to think we have lost sight of reality.
I breed cattle to make money and can’t afford to and won’t carry passengers in my herd if you can and think this is how to win shows then go ahead but in the sale and show ring I am happy with my results.

• L.H

  Reply
  August 1, 2012 at 10:00 pm

  where do you get four years old from for Dumandy to calf, she is not four till september and she calved at 37mths, which is about right for a show animal,she will be calving again in january, she is a big powerful VANTASTIC animal and alot of these remarks are jealousy. She did the Limousin Society a good job for winning for the breed at the Royal Welsh and the other shows.

• tim speck

  Reply
  August 2, 2012 at 6:47 pm

  truoble is mr mclaren,you seem to class beef producing cattle as only commercialy viable,and in answer to your question if any beast show or commercial are not doing the buisness they are hung up,as a beef class judge you should be totaly impartial and judge the animal on the day and not breeders management decisions wich by ever way you dress it up is what you are doing,as i have pointed out before i would not be so arrogant to think that commercial breeders think what they see in the ring is under commercial management,commercial men strive to produce the best end product they can and no one says to them were going to penalise you for your management decisions so why should show cattle be penalised for trying to produce the best end product they can.no matter what i respect your views and undoubtedly you will go on judging the way you do and almost certainly big powerfuk cows calving past three will conyinue to dominate.

I think most of these comments stem from jealously as I’m sure if offered they would all want to take her home . As for the no milk comments the calf is nearly 9 months old -how many cows, especially heifers have much left at this age? Hats off to John and his team for their achievement with a homered animal. She will go down in the history books for her wins

• L.H

  Reply
  August 2, 2012 at 8:43 pm

  Thank You. Well said.

I’ve read all these comments and think there is a confusing issue. Almost all pedigree breeders show cattle at some point or aim to when they start their herd, it’s a really enjoyable event when you attend a major show and are up against some strong competition. The problem is for some of us it has to be beneficial and fit in to a farm business at home. This can either be through success and subsequent publicity or by showing your wares to a commercial audience and hope they trust you and either come on farm to seek stock or buy from you at a sale. If you don’t need to worry about your commercial audience as you are only doing it for one reason, to win, and can afford to, then you don’t need to worry about the commercial customer. The commercial producer is repeatedly told by advisors that heifers need to calf at two to be economic so showing them a female at excess size and weight isn’t going to inspire him to come to your herd to source stock, but if this isn’t your aim then don’t worry about calving at two, calf at three and when you’re having calving problems with fat heifers that have laid down excess fat so won’t milk properly for their life time I’ll be getting the first calves ready from mine to sell in five months time . Not that confusing!

OMG…… is this debate still going on, a week after the Royal Welsh has finished? 81 comments (now 82) is this a record JL/CL?

well said neat another none jealous person nos a good animal when they see one happy happy days ye ha